A deadly brew

This post was written late last night, but I seem to be missing a part, if I figure out what it was I'll edit it back in. Strange.

Anyhow, I'm more of a combat rogue myself, but this one caught my fancy. It basically means you can use Instant poison instead of Deadly poison and still perform, in theory that wouldn't be a bad increase in DPS at all.

Sadly, in order to get the most out of this talent you'd have to go down into mutilate spec. But, for now let's presume that you're going deep enough into combat spec to get 4/5 into combat potency, and have 2/2 in deadly brew. How much DPS would deadly brew actually give you?

To get down low enough to get the deadly brew talent, you'll come along several other talents. First, let's assume you have 100% hit chance. So, if your offhand hits, it'll have a chance to apply poisons. Interestingly, DP has a 30% chance to get applied by itself, and IP only 20%

While you're going down the tree you'll manage to pick up Vile poisons which improve the damage your poisons do by 20% for 3 talent points. Also, Improved poisons which for 5 points will give each of your poisons a 25% bigger chance to be applied. This would give IP a 45% chance, and DP a 55% chance on their own.

What's your poison?

There aren't any new poisons in the beta that we can see yet, so we'll use the lvl 68-70 ones for now.

Instant Poison VII
Classes: Rogue
Requires Level 68
Use: Coats a weapon with poison that lasts for 1 hour.
Each strike has a 20% chance of poisoning the enemy which instantly inflicts 146 to 194 Nature damage.

Deadly Poison VII
Classes: Rogue
Requires Level 70
Use: Coats a weapon with poison that lasts for 1 hour.
Each strike has a 30% chance of poisoning the enemy for 180 Nature damage over 12 sec. Stacks up to 5 times on a single target.

Without any modifiers, and with 100% hit chance, attacking 1x per second.
IP = ((146+194)/2) * 20% = 34 DPS
DP = (180*5 stacks) / 12 seconds = 75 DPS (Not including any stack drops)

You can see that without talents, as long as you can keep the DP stack active and running constantly it's better for your overall DPS. If you were however to increase your attack speed to double, and attack 2x per second then your IP DPS would increase to 68, while the DP would still be doing 75 DPS as a constant damage over time.

Vile poisons increases either poison by an equal amount, and for to sake of comparison can be ignored for these calculations. The same applies to Infectious Poisons.

At the same 1 atk/second, (let's say APS) Improved poisons would have an effect similar to increasing your attack speed.
DP is still a static 75 DPS
IP+1 ImpP = ((146+194)/2) * 25% = 42.5 DPS
IP+2 ImpP = ((146+194)/2) * 30% = 51 DPS
IP+3 ImpP = ((146+194)/2) * 35% = 59,5 DPS
IP+4 ImpP = ((146+194)/2) * 40% = 68 DPS
IP+5 ImpP = ((146+194)/2) * 45% = 76,5 DPS

With the new WotLK version of Improved Poisons which gives +25% chance to apply instead of +10% chance to apply like in TBC, Instant Poison actually has a good chance to become better than deadly poison.

The deadly brew

Now, the power of this new talent, doesn't just lie in the fact that you can use 2 poisons and an insane versatility for pvp. It basically adds instant poison to your total dps. Normally your poison DPS would be ~75 from DP. Now you'd have DP+IP and come to a total which is nothing more than a combination of the two totals. 75+76.5 = 151,5 DPS as from the above example. That's actually pretty damn good for only 2 talent points.

Other talents

But, it doesn't stop there.

Remember I said you could skip Vile poisons and Infectious Poisons for the sake of comparison? That's all true up to a point, until you want to look at deadly brew. VP gives +20% poison damage, InfP gives another 20%. I'm not certain whether they work multiplicative (120%*120%) or additive (140%), but let's assume it's multiplicative for now. If I'm wrong in this, just correct me.

DP = 75 DPS * 120% * 120% = 108 DPS
IP = 76,5 DPS * 120% * 120% = 110,16 DPS
A combined total of 108 + 110,16 = 218,16 DPS

Meaning, that those 3+2 talent points in Vile and Infactious poisons just gave you a total of 218,16 - 151,5 = 66,66 DPS instead of just 108 - 75 = 33 DPS if you weren't using the Deadly Brew. So, this talent could be said to have a synergy with the other two talents.


But, if you're going that deep into the Assassination tree, you wouldn't stop there. You'd be going further and taking Mutilate. And while you're there anyway, you might as well go even further and take the rest of the WotLK talents as well. You'd almost be crazy not to.

It's not certain yet whether assassination or combat spec will be best for pve, but blizzard is most certainly trying to give the assa tree a lot more DPS than it has right now.

The new talents allow a mutilate spec rogue to pretty much ignore the improved slice and dice talent. You'd also only need to apply it just once which would save a good bit of energy. Your rotation will require you to weave in the Hunger for Blood spell though.

For mutilate you'll most likely be using two daggers each 1.8-1.9 sec attack speed. Slice and dice should be active constantly. And if you're lucky you'll also have a shaman in your group to provide you with the new WindFury totem buff which gives 16% haste. Not as good as the buff used to be, but still nice.

You shouldn't have too much trouble getting near 1 sec attack speed with both weapons. And then there's your yellow attacks as well, mutilate, hunger, mutilate, envenom, hunger. Add in Focused Attacks and it suddenly becomes rather difficult to really calculate it without building a big spreadsheet.

A rotation

That rotation would use 60, 30, 60, 35, 30 energy. Which requires = 215 energy per cycle. A total of 21.5 Seconds needed to get enough energy for that. (Keep in mind i'm sucking all this from a white paper scrap stained with soda here) Assuming you're attacking at an average (each weapon about 1.x seconds) of 0.6 times per second and have around 35% critical strike chance. You'd have 35.83 white attacks + 1 envenom in that period out of which (36.83/100)*35 = 12.89 would be critical. This would mean that thanks to Focused attacks you'd gain about 38.67 energy in that same time period. You'd also perform 2 mutilates which can also trigger focused attacks (Or so I assume), these count as 4 attacks with a heightened crit chance. Puncturing wounds and Dagger specialization together would add an additional 20% crit chance to your mutilate. (4 attacks / 100)*55 = about 2.2 crits = 6.6 energy gained.

38.67 + 6.6 = 45.2715 energy that you'd gain in that time span of 215 seconds. You however won't be spending 215 seconds on that rotation however, since after 3 of such rotations your energy bar will be overflooded.

It's not for humans to calculate a formula that changes depending on the result, so you can forget that I'll even try. You'll still get a shortened example though, since i'm bored at the moment. ;)

If your white attacks are working at 0.6 per second, then you'll have (0.6/100)*35 = 0.21 crits per second. 0.21*3 = 0.63 energy per second, on top of the regular 10 energy per second.

Let's remove the 6.6 energy regain from the mutilate result and try again. (215-6.6) / 10.63 = 19.605 seconds for a full rotation. And that's not even with Relentless Strikes included. So the above rotation should certainly work. You'd even have an extra 20-25 energy slack due to relentless strikes in which you can speed up your rotation or use stuff like berzerking or blade flurry to keep your attack speed nice and fast.


For the sake of keeping myself busy.... Let's see how poison damage you'd do during such a rotation. Envenom not included as damage, and not included as removing deadly poison stacks. I might be crazy, but I'm certainly not insane enough to go that deep into it right very now thank you very much.

Deadly Poison : 19.605 Sec * 75 DPS * 1.2 * 1.2 = 2117.34 Damage.
Still assuming 100% hit rate
Instand Poison : (19.605 Sec / 0.6) * ((146+194)/2) * 45% =
((32.675 * 170)/100) * 45 * 1.2 * 1.2 = 3599.478 Damage.
Total : 5716.818 Poison damage over 19.605 seconds, or simply 291.6 of your total DPS is based on IP and DP.

Just keep in mind all the above values, while they may seem accurate, are to be taken with a big rough grain of salt. The absolute in game numbers will be slightly different from the above calculations. Especially if your hit chance isn't 100%.

More poison

I have no doubt that more exact numbers will be calculated soon by the guys over at the EJ forums rogue dps threads. Especially the Rogue WotLK thread. So keep an eye on those two for more details.


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