Monday, September 01, 2008

September 01, 2008
As mentioned a couple of days ago in this post, this post is about rogue tanking. You may be thinking, leather, barely 10k health, we're doomed for sure! Not quite. With proper gear a rogue can actually tank certain bosses. Threat and spell damage are the only real problems. Even bosses such as Mother shahraz and Illidan have successfully be tanked by rogues in the past. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) this mechanic does not work everywhere. As said threat is an issue, in full avoidance gear we have very little DPS, and thus pathetic threat. The second issue is this, sunwell radiance. It basically ensures we'd have -25% avoidance and are thus unable to continue tanking in Sunwell. It basically comes down to this. Rogue tanking is fun, hilarious in pvp, and a nice quirk to do in case one of your other tanks gets hit by a car. But, not a reason for you to steal armor off your druids, hunters, warriors or paladins. Just keep that in mind. How much we'll be able to do in WotLK is still fairly uncertain, however blizzard has made the statement (threat?) that we won't likely be able to continue this fun abuse of the avoidance system in the upcoming expansion. Quote: I can't give you exact numbers, but you are correct that Sunwell Radiance was added simply because we let tanks get crazy high avoidance. It does feel like a bit of a band-aid, but when you think about the alternative we would have needed to balance those encounters (dodge, dodge, parry, dead), lower avoidance was probably the right call. We've learned a lot about itemization since then and certainly have no plans of going back to Sunwell Radiance. But don't expect to get 100% avoidance any time soon. Oh well. Let's make the most out of this while we can! Either way, I intend to gather an avoidance set as my second gear set in WotLK. Speccing Speccing for tanking is fairly straightforward, you really don't have much choice in the matter. Subtlety is primarily the way to go due to the +15% agility talent Sinister Calling. You could go Combat spec and take 2/2 Vitality, but the 13% less agility will ensure you'll be unable to gain enough avoidance. Something like this should do the trick: Subtlety (raids) or Combat for better threat but less avoidance (5 man dungeons). Don't take it as a holy grail of any kind though, there's always room to improve the spec based on your needs and preferences. Stat values Before you can give gear a value, you'll need to know how much avoidance each stat is worth. This is largely made easy by Combat Ratings. 18.923 dodge rating = 1% dodge 22.4 parry rating = 1% parry 2.3654 defence rating = 1 defence 59,135 defence rating = 25 defence : +25 Defense will grant you an extra 1% Miss, Parry and Dodge = 3% avoidance total We need to set all stats to a similar line, so we divide that by 3. 19,7116 defence rating = 8,33~ defence = 1% total Agility Agility is special since this stat can be affected by our talents, blessing of kings and sayge's dark fortune. Since the darkmoon faire is only active once a month we'll skip on that last buff for now. 20 agi = 1% dodge 1/20 = 1 agi = 0,05% avoidance With Sinister Calling (+15%) + Blessing of Kings (+10%) the formula becomes : 1 x 1.1 x 1.15 = 1.265 agi. So, 1 agi = 1.265 * (1% / 20) Dodge = 0.06325% Avoidance. With Vitality (2%) instead of Sinister calling the formula is : 1 x 1.1 x 1.02 = 1.122 agi. So, 1 agi = 1.122 * (1% / 20) Dodge = 0.0561% Avoidance. Now, if for example you had 750 Agi total, with SC + Kings you'd get 750 x 0.06325 = 47.4375% dodge With Vitality + Kings you'd get 750 x 0.0561 = 42.075% dodge 47.4375 - 42.075 = 5.3625% dodge difference. Sinister calling is clearly the way to go for now. Point values 1 Agility = 1.265 * (1% / 20) Dodge = 0.06325% avoidance 1 Dodge rating = 1/18.923 = 0.052845743275379168208000845531892% avoidance 1 Defence rating = 1/19,7116 = 0.050731377356895239705758011330025% avoidance 1 Parry rating = 1/22.4 = 0.044642857142857142857142857142857% avoidance Agility seems to be the best choice out of the four stats. (Parry is good for threat though, but that's another story) Avoidance Goal So, how much avoidance do we actually need to be "un hittable"? This will vary slightly depending whether a boss is dual wielding or not as well if the boss has any special abilities which increase it's hit rating. Gurtogg Bloodboil and Illidan for instance have been changed to be counted as dual wielding mobs. Thus their base miss chance is 24% rather than 5% as most bosses. They've been given what appears to be a +19% hit chance talent however which means their normal attacks will still have a 5% miss chance but special instant attacks will have a 0% miss rate. Much like rogues. You need 100% dodge, parry and/or avoidance in general not to be hit by mobs equal to your level. For each level that a mob/boss is a level higher than you they gain 0.6% to hit you. This is because your chance to parry, dodge and chance to be missed go down by 0.2% each. This is caused by the fact that they have 15 weaponskill more than your base defence. Their 365 vs your 350 at level 70. As a result you'll need 100% + 3x 0.6% = 101.8% avoidance. Hence the clever post title ;) Base Agility Completely naked, with no talents the values below are your base agility. However, since we need to include the agility modifiers in all calculations we'll assume that blessing of kings and Sinister calling are active for the avoidance math and multiply the result by 0.06325%. Night Elf : 163 * 0.06325% = 10.30975% avoidance Gnome : 161 = 10.18325% avoidance Troll : 160 = 10.12% avoidance Blood Elf : 160 = 10.12% avoidance Human : 158 = 9.9935% avoidance Undead : 156 = 9.867% avoidance Orc : 155 = 9.80375% avoidance Dwarf : 154 = 9.7405% avoidance Base dodge modifier : -0.59% dodge for rogues. Most classes have a 0% modifier, but blizzard decided to be evil and give us -0.59% so we wouldn't get too high dodge. Go figure. I'm a troll myself, so I'll use that as a base example for now. 10.12% - 0.59% = 9.53% Gems Gems are the cake and butter to get you up to the avoidance limit. Since it's red gems that give +10 agility you may end up with a hefty price tag. No pain, no gain as they say. Dig deep in that bundle and get the best you can get. You'll also want to ignore socket bonusses for the most part. +2 stam, +4 Crit, +2 hit or +4 AP isn't going to help your avoidance at all. Red Delicate Crimson Spinel : 10 agi * 0.06325 = 0.6325% Avoidance Delicate Living Ruby : 8 agi = 0.506% Avoidance if you wish to be cheap. Subtle Crimson Spinel : 10 dodge = 0.528457432754% Avoidance Flashing Crimson Spinel : 10 parry = 0.446428571429% Avoidance As you can see, the Delicate Crimson Spinel is a clear winner for any socket. Yellow + Red These gems are tricky to get as you'll have to run some heroic dungeons, but mandatory if you wish to use the meta gem. Glistening Fire Opal : 4 agi, 5 def = 0.506657744678% Avoidance Stalwart Fire Opal : 5 def, 4 dodge = 0.46504071778% Avoidance Glimmering Fire Opal : 5 parry, 4 def = 0.426140481457% Avoidance blue + Red Sadly there's no real blue gem alternatives to these gimp little purple things. Look on wow gem finder if you don't believe me. Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst : 5 agi = 0.31625% Avoidance Shifting Tanzanite : 5 agi = 0.31625% Avoidance Shifting Nightseye : 4 agi = 0.253% Avoidance Meta Gem There's a few meta gems that you can use, but only one that doesn't "completely" nerf all your other sockets. Relentless Earthstorm Diamond : 12 agi = 0.759% avoidance Activation To activate this Meta gem you need 2 blue and 2 yellow gems. This can be done by simply socketing in 2 green gems and thus losing 2x 10 stats, but there are simply no viable green gems that give any avoidance at all. If there hadn't been any good orange gems this might have been a different case however. Heroic gems are no longer unique as of a recent patch so we can use the best that are available. To activate the meta gem, you sacrifice: 4x Delicate Crimson Spinel : 0.6325 * 4 = 2.53% Avoidance And replace these with: 2x Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst : 5 agi = 0.31625% * 2 = 0.6325% Avoidance 2x Glistening Fire Opal : 4 agi, 5 def = 0.506657744678 * 2 = 1.013315489356% Avoidance Total loss 2.53 (4 red gems) - 0.6325 (2 blue) - 1.013315489356 (2 yellow) = 0.884184510644% Avoidance lost 0.884184510644 (total lost) - 0.759 (Meta gained) = 0.125184510644% Total Avoidance lost. 0.125184510644% (Total avoidance lost) / 0.06325% (1 agi) = 1.979201749312 Agi needed to compensate. Meaning, you'd need to make sure you gain at least 2 agility from socket bonusses in order to make using a meta gem worthwhile. Not to mention the +3% extra damage from crits for threat. This shouldn't be too difficult I think. Unlike what some other people claim, using a meta gem can actually be beneficial for your total avoidance. In theory it'll be easier in WotLK, since the new meta gems won't have requirements(or so I'm told). Also, jewelcrafters can make BoP gems for themselves that will fit all three sockets regardless of color to achieve extra socket bonusses without the loss of avoidance. Avoidance socket bonus These are suitable items for accommodating the activation of the meta gem, I think their socket bonus speaks for itself. B: Quad Deathblow X44 Goggles : 71 Agi = 4.49075% Avoidance. 4 = 0.253% Bonus B: Deathblow X11 Goggles : 58 Agi : 3.6685% Avoidance. 4 = 0.253% Bonus B: Demontooth Shoulderpads : 58 Agi : 3.6685% Avoidance. 3 = 0.18975% Bonus BY: Harness of Carnal Instinct : 74 Agi : 4.6805% Avoidance. 4 = 0.253% Bonus BY: Shadowprowler's Chestguard : 70 agi = 4.4275% Avoidance. 4 = 0.253% Bonus Y: Insidious Bands : 38 Agi = 2.403% Avoidance. 2 = 0.1265% Bonus B: Gloves of the Forest Drifter : 54 Agi = 3.4155% Avoidance. 3 = 0.18975% Bonus B: Shadowed Gauntlets of Paroxysm : 61 Agi = 3.85825% Avoidance. 3 = 0.18975% Bonus Y: Wastewalker Gloves : 52 Agi = 3.289% Avoidance. 3 Dodge = 0.15853722982613750462400253659568% Bonus B: Belt of One-Hundred Deaths : 49 Agi = 3.09925% Avoidance. 3 = 0.18975% Bonus Y: Belt of the Silent Path : 44 Agi = 2.783% Avoidance. 2 = 0.1265% Bonus BB: Belt of Deep Shadow : 52 Agi = 3.289% Avoidance. 3 = 0.18975% Bonus B: Dunewind Sash : 41 agi = 2.59325% Avoidance. 3 = 0.18975% Bonus B: Leggings of the Immortal Beast = 4.807% Avoidance. 4 = 0.253% Bonus B: Skulker's Greaves : 62 Agi = 3.9215% Avoidance. 4 Dodge = 0.21138297310151667283200338212757% Bonus Buffs I'm not including blessing of kings on this list, as it is already included in the agility calculations. Hunter - Scorpid Sting - 5% Avoidance Druid - Insect Swarm - 2% Avoidance (Won't stack with Scorpid sting in the 3.0.2 patch) Elixir of Major Agility : 35 Agi = 2.21375% Avoidance Warp Burger / Grilled Mudfish : 20 Agi = 1.265% Avoidance Scroll of Agility V : 20 Agi = 1.265% Avoidance Mark of the Wild : 14 Agility (18.9 Improved) = 0.8855% Avoidance (1.195425% Improved) Totem - Grace of Air : 77 agility (88.55 Improved) = 4.87025% Avoidance (5.6007875% Improved) Embrace of the Dawn applied by a party member : 10 agility = 0.6325% Avoidance (not sure whether it stacks more than once) Total available from the above buffs : 19.1724625% Avoidance These buffs are also options, but aren't realistic to use very often. Songflower Serenade : +15 Agi (Felwood) Spirit of Zandalar : +50 Agi (Zone buff) Sayge's Dark Fortune of Agility : +10% (Darkmoon Faire) Enchants Helm: Glyph of the Defender : 16 def, 17 dodge = 1.70864665% Avoidance Shoulder: Greater Inscription of Warding : 15 dodge, 10 def = 1.299140953% Avoidance Cloak: 12 agility = 0.759% Avoidance Chest: 15 defense = 0.75949367% Avoidance Bracers: 12 defense = 0.607594936% Avoidance Gloves: 15 agility = 0.94875% Avoidance Legs: Nethercleft Leg Armor : 12 agility = 0.759% Avoidance Boots: 12 agility = 0.759% Avoidance Rings: 2x 4 agility = 2 x 0.253% = 0.506% Avoidance Weapons: 2x 20 Agi : 2 x 1.265% = 2.530% Avoidance : 2x mongoose is miles better for dps and threat, but procs are unreliable and will get you killed in the long run. Total from enchants: 10.636626209% Avoidance Gear This list for Lootzor will show a decent collection sorted by avoidance value. And, you can always search manually using thottbot's recently added point based filtering. It's a bit clunky still though. Or even shadowpanther's list. And even this list on lootrank. Plenty of options really. I've tried to add items for all tiers to this list, so it should be suitable for everyone. All sockets are assumed to be filled with a +10 Agi red gem, all meta sockets are assumed to be empty. Head Quad Deathblow X44 Goggles : 71 Agi = 4.49075 Grimgrin Faceguard : 70 Agi = 4.4275 Mask of the Fury Hunter : 60 Agi = 3.795 Deathblow X11 Goggles : 58 Agi = 3.6685 Slayer's Helm : 55 Agi : 3.47875 Stealther's Helmet of Second Sight : 54 Agi = 3.4155 Duplicitous Guise : 53 agi = 3.35225 (Optimal -1.1385) Cursed Vision of Sargeras : 49 agi = 3.09925 Mask of the Deceiver : 42 agi = 2.6565 Neck Necklace of the Deep : 41 Agi = 2.59 Telonicus's Pendant of Mayhem : 27 agi = 1.70775 The Darkener's Grasp : 27 def, 23 dodge = 2.58519928397 Pendant of Titans : 21 def, 25 dodge = 2.386502506379 Jagged Bark Pendant : 26 agi = 1.6445 Clutch of Demise : 25 agi = 1.58125 (Optimal -1.00875) Earthen Mark of Razing : 23 agi = 1.45475 Saberclaw Talisman : 21 agi = 1.32825 Shoulder Brutal Gladiator's Leather Spaulders : 59 Agi : 3.73175 Demontooth Shoulderpads : 58 Agi : 3.6685 Slayer's Shoulderpads : 54 Agi = 3.4155 Shoulderpads of Assassination : 45 agi = 2.84625 Shoulderpads of the Stranger : 45 agi = 2.84625 Shoulderpads of Vehemence : 33 agi = 2.08725 (Optimal -1.6445) Back / Cloak Phoenix-Wing Cloak : 22 def, 27 dodge = 2.542925370287 Cloak of Unforgivable Sin : 36 agi = 2.277 (Optimal -0.265925370287) Slikk's Cloak of Placation : 16 def 25 dodge = 2.132845619594 Illidari Cloak of Agility : 33 agi = 2.08725 Cloak of Enduring Swiftness : 12 agi 23 dodge = 1.974452095334 Devilshark Cape : 20 def, 18 dodge = 1.965850926095 Thalassian Wildercloak : 28 agi = 1.771 Chest Slayer's Chestguard : 75 Agi = 4.74375 Auchenai Monk's Tunic : 54 agi, 24 dodge = 4.683797838609 Harness of Carnal Instinct : 74 Agi : 4.6805 Bladed Chaos Tunic : 72 agi = 4.554 (Optimal -0.18975) Carapace of Sun and Shadow : 72 agi = 4.554 Warden's Hauberk : 69 Agi : 4.36425 Shadowprowler's Chestguard : 70 agi = 4.4275 Nether Shadow Tunic : 66 Agi : 4.1745 Tunic of the Dark Hour : 54 Agi = 3.4155 Wrist Insidious Bands : 38 Agi = 2.4035 Guardian's Leather Bracers : 38 Agi = 2.4035 Slayer's Bracers : 37 Agi = 2.34025 (Optimal -0.06325) Vambraces of Ending : 34 Agi = 2.1505 Shard-bound Bracers : 30 agi = 1.8975 Master Assassin Wristwraps : 27 agi = 1.70775 Hands / Gloves Shadowed Gauntlets of Paroxysm : 61 Agi = 3.85825 Gloves of Dexterous Manipulation : 55 Agi = 3.47875 Gloves of the Forest Drifter : 54 Agi = 3.4155 Wastewalker Gloves : 52 Agi = 3.289 Gloves of Immortal Dusk : 50 Agi = 3.1625 (Optimal -0.69575) Slayer's Handguards : 44 Agi = 2.783 Waist / Belt Lurker's Grasp of Agility : 55 agi = 3.47875 Belt of Deep Shadow : 52 Agi = 3.289 Belt of One-Hundred Deaths : 49 Agi = 3.09925 (Optimal -0.3795) Don Alejandro's Money Belt : 49 Agi = 3.09925 Belt of the Silent Path : 44 agi = 2.783 Girdle of Treachery : 41 Agi = 2.59325 Dunewind Sash : 41 agi = 2.59325 Slayer's Belt : 39 agi = 2.46675 Bladeangel's Money Belt : 35 agi = 2.21375 Legs / Pants Leggings of the Immortal Beast : 76 Agi = 4.807 Leggings of the Immortal Night : 75 Agi = 4.74375 (Optimal -0.06325) Tameless Breeches : 65 = 4.11125% Trousers of the Scryers' Retainer : 63 Agi = 3.98475 Skulker's Greaves : 62 Agi = 3.9215 Wastewalker Leggings : 61 agi = 3.85825 Slayer's Legguards : 56 agi = 3.542 Feet / Boots Nimble-foot Treads : 32 agi, 25 dodge = 3.345143581884 Shadowmaster's Boots : 50 Agi = 3.1625 Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots : 49 Agi = 3.09925 Edgewalker Longboots : 49 Agi = 3.09925 Slayer's Boots : 40 Agi = 2.53 (Optimal -0.815143581884) Finger / Rings Amber Band of Eluding : 21 agi, 21 dodge = 2.438186562 Arcane Loop of Eluding : 21 agi, 21 dodge = 2.438186562 Delicate Eternium Ring : 25 agi, 16 dodge = 2.426781892406 Ring of Sundered Souls : 18 def, 25 dodge = 2.234308374308 Arcane Loop of agility : 33 agi = 2.08725 Amber Band of agility : 32 agi = 2.024 Elementium Band of the Sentry : 20 def 19 dodge = 2.01869666937 Hard Khorium Band : 30 Agi = 1.8975 (Optimal -0.540686562) Andormu's Tear : 10 def, 26 dodge = 1.881303098729 Band of the Eternal Champion : 29 Agi = 1.83425 Angelista's Revenge : 29 Agi = 1.83425 (Optimal -0.603936562) Signet of Primal Wrath : 28 agi = 1.771 Trinkets Shadowmoon Insignia : 36 def 32 dodge = 3.51739336966 Guardian's Alchemist Stone : 54 def = 2.739494377272 Scarab of Displacement : 42 def = 2.13071784899 Ancient Aqir Artifact : 45 parry = 2.008928571429 Moroes' Lucky Pocket Watch : 38 dodge = 2.008138244464 Brooch of the Immortal King : 32 def = 1.623404075421 Onyxia Blood Talisman : 20 parry 12 def = 1.50163367114 Weapons Umbral Shiv OH : 32 Agi = 2.024 (You can use 2 of these, but your threat will be pathetic) Blade of the Unrequited OH : 30 Agi = 1.8975 Rage MH : 30 agi = 1.8975 Crux of the Apocalypse : 28 Agu = 1.771 Blade of Infamy MH : 28 agi = 1.771 Felsteel Longblade MH : 26 Agi = 1.6445 The Sun Eater OH 13 def, 19 dodge = 1.663577027872 Fang of Kalecgos OH : 25 Agi = 1.58125 Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality MH : 23 Agi = 1.45475 Warglaive of Azzinoth MH : 22 agi = 1.3915 (Optimal -0.6325) Warglaive of Azzinoth OH : 21 agi = 1.32825 (Optimal -0.69575) Ranged slot Barrel-Blade Longrifle : 36 Agi = 2.277 Twisted Blades of Zarak : 23 Agi = 1.45475 Legionkiller : 21 Agi = 1.32825 Arcanite Steam-Pistol : 20 agi = 1.265 Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix : 19 Agi = 1.20175 Golden Bow of Quel'Thalas : 18 Agi = 1.1385 Thori'dal, the Stars' Fury : 17 Agi = 1.07525 (Optimal -1.20175) When one takes the highest available avoidance item for each slot, only skipping the alchemist trinket in favour of the scarab your total max avoidance from gear would be: 52.841303294821 The meta gem slot is still empty though. Filling up the Meta slot The goal is to use the minimum of 4 gems and get the most extra avoidance. As described above, doing so will mean we lose 0.884184510644 Avoidance. Assuming you're an engineer and managed to get lucky enough to find yourself with a nice pair of Quad Deathblow X44 Goggles then you're pretty much set for the head piece. Alternatively there's the Mask of the Fury Hunter or Deathblow X11 Goggles you can use to insert the meta gem, but those have a lot less avoidance. B: Quad Deathblow X44 Goggles : 71 Agi = 4.49075% Avoidance. 4 = 0.253% Bonus Y: Insidious Bands : 38 Agi = 2.403% Avoidance. 2 = 0.1265% Bonus BY: Harness of Carnal Instinct : 74 Agi : 4.6805% Avoidance. 4 = 0.253% Bonus Using this combination would mean we only lose 1 agility on the chest, while we gain 10 agility in socket bonusses. This should more than cover the loss of 0.125184510644 avoidance we got by swapping out 4 of the red gems. 0.06325 * (10-1) = 0.56925% Avoidance gained, as well as 3% extra damage on crits. Totals Troll Rogue lvl 70 vs lvl 73 boss. Professions: Enchanting + Engineering. * Enchant Avoidance = 10.636626209% * Base Dodge = 9.53% * Base Parry = 5% * Spec Avoidance = 10% (5% dodge 5% parry) * Racial = 0% (Night elves get 1% dodge) * Boss Miss Rate = 5% * Buff Avoidance = 19.1724625% * Sub Total Avoidance = 59.32% without gear 101.8 - 59.32 = 42.48% that gear needs to produce. * Max Gear Avoidance = 52.841303294821% (Base gear) + 0.56925%(Meta change) = 53.410553294821% * Grand Total Avoidance = 112.730553294821% * To spare : 112.682553294821 - 101.8 = 10.930553294821% Avoidance. For sunwell you'd need an extra 25% : Which is simply not possible to obtain at this time. When patch 3.0.2 hits the live servers Scorpid sting and Insect swarm will no longer stack, thus you'll need an additional 2% Avoidance. Or rather, you'll have 2% less to spare. See this blue post for details. Optimal setup (High threat) To tank effectively you'll need threat, lots of it. Sadly this isn't always possible. The 2p and 4p slayer's set bonus is very good, but in order to get it you'd have to sacrifice a lot of avoidance. Also, since you don't have any combat potency the 2p set bonus is pretty lacking as well. I'll skip on the trinkets, as they'd reduce avoidance too much. Obviously you'll want the Blackened Naaru Sliver, Dragonspine trophy, Shard of Contempt or Madness of the betrayer if you have access to them. Changing all the max items we used earlier into the ones marked as optimal would reduce avoidance by: -9.938942076171% That will mess up the meta gem again however so you need to reduce that value by another: -0.56925%. Which causes you to end up at : -10.508192076171% Don't forget you can also switch out the 2x20 agility for Mongoose. This means you'll lose 40*0.06325 = 2.53% Avoidance, but gain a lot of threat. Since we had 10.930553294821 to spare, that's all good. We're losing another 2% in WotLK though, so you'll have to make some choices then. Realistically though, if you're able to ge the ones marked as optimal you shouldn't have too much difficulty skipping on 1-2 of them either and still do a lot of DPS. Macros This macro should allow you to test your current avoidance in game. It assumes 5% boss miss rate. /script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("Need 101.8 combined avoidance. Currently at:",0.8,0.8,1) /script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(GetDodgeChance() +GetBlockChance()+GetParryChance()+5+(GetCombatRating(CR_DEFENSE_SKILL) *150/355+20)*0.04,1,0.5,0) Playstyle Smash riposte whenever you can. Since you've got 10.x% parry and are taking a lot of blows in your general direction it should be available fairly often. A good amount of threat for very little energy is never a bad thing. Keep slice 'n dice active and rupture when the last stack drops off your target. If a boss has a cast timer for certain spells save your cloak of shadows to counter it. Onyxia's fire breath or gurtogg's acid breath for example. Since you've got max avoidance most boss enrage timers shouldn't be a problem for you. Low threat and aoe or random spells will definitely kill your raid buddies though. Never forget you need them to keep your avoidance the way it is. Additional information * Downfall. Project: rogue tank. * The wow forums. this thread, and this one. * Shadowpanther's rogue avoidance armor list. * Thoughts for food. tank kit choices. * WowWiki. Defense, Parry, Agility. * EJ Forums. 100% avoidance, making a rogue tank, Survival itemlist. Look, even Hunters can do it. * Recount forums: Rogue tanking. * Raidcalc Rogue DPS Spreadsheet. Allows you to calculate most of the avoidance, and threat. * Curse: Tank Totals addon. ps: Cowgirl ate my bacon sandwitch :(


bbr said...

Just in case :P

I'm sure there's a dozen errors here 'n there, feel free to point them out.

Anonymous said...

I am not sure maybe it was changed a while back (I wasn't playing for a while). But there are two dice rolls 1 for the attacker for miss/hit/krit and one for the defender parry/dodge/block/stand the attack.

So you couldn't (and maybe still can't) count the chance to miss to the avoidance. because if your mob has a 10% chance to miss and you have an 90% chance to avoid the mob has a 0.9*0.1=0.09=9% chance to still hit you.

and also the crushing chance was into the parry/dodge/block/stand/crushing dice roll included so hthe mob would land only some hits, but they are crushings

Anonymous said...

Rogue tanks FTW!

Anonymous said...

Afaik mobs (NPCs) have a single-roll system where everything is decided by one roll. This is why defense is important for regular tanks - it pushes critical hits and crushing blows off the single roll table in favour of less dangerous things (like regular hits or blocks, depending on)

Players however have a double-roll system, I believe. So if I remember right, the example is true there.

And yes, rogue tanks are indeed ftw. Quite fun too, and you don't actually need complete melee immunity to tank some lighter stuff. I amuse myself being a Karazhan offtank with maybe 70% avoidance or so.

Anonymous said...

hm ok with a single roll system it is possible, but you can't push crushings out replacing them with normal hits only crits, crushings are only prevented with dodge parry or block, this is why it is important to have shield block up all the time, against bosses which can make crushing blows, and why druids can be crushed (no blocking)

Anonymous said...

Mmm, yep. And why you eventually need full melee immunity if you're going to survive against bigger stuff (or the stamina to survive atleast one lucky hit)

There's an overgoing period between near and full melee immunity where every hit on you will be a crushing blow. Much of why rogue tanks kindof live on the edge, heh.

Anonymous said...

Yum, nice bacon sandwitch ;)

bbr said...


Muckbeast said...

Awesome information. This is the sort of thing that I find really interesting: when you can use legitimate gameplay to do things most people think is impossible.

Blogging about Online Gaming and Virtual Worlds:

Anonymous said...

Hmmm.... you kinda stole some of my words and sentence structure straight out of my information thread without properly citing your source or at least giving me credit for plagurizing my words. Shame on you....

That being said, i care much more about the spreading of this information and the creation of rogue tanks than i do about personal credit. So F it.

Anyway, it seems to me that you can't differentiate the two words "avoidance" and "evasion". You mixed them up WAY too much for any self respecting rogue.

Avoidance = Block+Parry+Dodge+Enemy miss chance.

Evasion = skill that grants 50% dodge (50% avoidance) for 15 seconds.

Also, under your playstyle section, the only thing you have to say is smash riposte? This coupled with the fact you don't know the difference between evasion and avoidance tells me that you really DO NOT know what you're talking about, you are just regurgitating information you have found without even testing it out yourself. Again, shame on you. Its pretty easy to spit out a formula, but when it came to describing how to actually fight and play as an effective tank, you failed miserably. You didn't mention that blade flurry is almost a must for pulling mobs and the art of target switching mid blade flurry. Not trying to get on you, just do your homework properly, don't just cut and paste.

bbr said...

Im aware of the difference of evasion and avoidance, i just tend to mix the words up. It's more a kink in the cable than an actual misunderstanding.

Blade flurry is also unavailable for 100% evasion rogue tanks.

If you believe I've stolen your words from the us wow forums post, I'm afraid I'm going to have to disappoint you because I haven't given it more than a cursory glance. So, zero copy pasting was done on that account. Any resemblance to that post is purely coincidental.

Anonymous said...

Ok, since you used evasion incorrectly AGAIN, I KNOW you don't know what you're talking about. Also, you think blade flurry is unavailable for 100% avoidance tanks? LOL the current best rogue tanking build is 0/21/40 WITH blade flurry. So as i said before, do your homework first.

I started my post with-
"This thought will undoubtedly go through your head when a crazy rogue offers to tank..... "How could this dagger totin elf with leather pants tank for me???!!!! IMPOSSIBLE???!! He has 9000 health, and only 30% damage mitigation due to his 4500 armor!!! We'll always wipe!" Wrong wrong wrong."

You started your post with-
"You may be thinking, leather, barely 10k health, we're doomed for sure! Not quite."

Ive been through 10th grade english class too buddy, lol, i know how to spot plagurism of my own words. Just a coincidence eh?

Anonymous said...

Hi there, I actually wrote that Rogue Tank blog you referenced.

Good stuff. My blog was only really supposed to be a checklist for myself really. Didn't realize so many people found it. Learned about that yellow agi/def gem here so that def makes me think about Meta Gems again.

Anyways, just to let ya know, through some in game testing I found out how Kings and Sinister Calling interact. They did not stack multiplicatively, so not a 1.1 x 1.15 thing. Instead it was additively, a (1 + 0.1 + 0.15) thing. So the agi formula is supposed to be 1.25 / 20 = 0.0625

This means all agi items take a bit of a hit. Not a lot, bout 1% less.

Just thought I'd let ya know what I found. Good luck!

bbr said...

Hmm, are you certain? The EJ forums list the same value for multiplying agility. Same for the hunter agi talent.

Also, Unfair Advantage is going to do some insane things for your threat in WotLK.

Anonymous said...

Pretty sure. Was fiddling around a lot over the weekend and the thing I noticed was that 20 agi gave me exactly 1.25 more dodge.

Not 1.265, or 1.26, or 1.27, but 1.25. Which matches exactly if it were additive. EJ might have assumed multiplicative too like I did before without testing it too much. Cause it's not a huge difference, just 1.012% off.

Yea Unfair Advantage would be good for threat, but in all likelihood, you'd still need Sinister Calling to maintain avoidance tanking so it's unreachable.

The spec at Wrath I see going is probably gonna be 31/40:

Just barely enough to reach 1 point into Vitality for another 1% more Agility.

Anonymous said...

Well I tried to get a 2nd opinion on EJ. So far they think it could just be some rounding errors. Oh well sorry for the confusion.

bbr said...

Feedback's always useful.
Have you tried to see whether it's accurate with a difference of 100-400 agi? That would push the second digit across the dot.

Anonymous said...

Yea confirmed it. Adding more will push it over sometimes due to rounding.

What it does also mean is that you can't just add the avoidance of each gear/buff/enchant/gem together. Gonna have to get the stats together then do the avoidance calculation all at once with some rounding.

The avoidance number for each gear/buff/enchant/gem is still good to compare relative values to one another though.

bbr said...

Interesting, cheers for making sure.

It could be just displaying the rounded values though, while internally it uses the accurate values. Hard to test that though.

Anonymous said...

Does anyone know what the critical strike % for a Rogue with that high agility would be?

Anonymous said...

if you are interested in rogue tanks look at mine. search for roguetank "C√łntra" on youtube. since 3.0 it doesnt works but not because of skorpidsting and insektswarm its because agility is patched. if you have very much agi your evade will get less than before 3.0. i have 10% evade less and so tanking is impossible now.

and @ anonymous with 1500 agi buffed i have just 25% crit

sry for my english!

bbr said...

Yeah, agi, dodge, block and parry all go down now if one becomes a lot higher than the other. It makes rogue tanking quite impossible at high levels.

Still, it was fun while it lasted :)